QUESTIONS & ANSWERS - Times of
India: 28th March 2002
Javed Akhtar speaks to Ms.Lalita
Panicker
Q: Do you see a pattern in all the
developments which have taken place
in recent times, the Ayodhya, the
Gujarat carnage and now POTO?
Answer: Yes, I do because there is
an attempt to marginalize and
terrorize political dissidents,
adversaries and minorities. I share
the fears of all liberal and secular
people about POTO. The government
says it needs a stronger law to
fight terrorism but shies away from
defining terrorism. Why because any
definition of terrorism will make it
obvious that VHP and Bajrang Dal
indulge in terrorism against
minorities. Obviously a government
that wants to hide this reality will
use this draconian law against
minorities.
It is no longer a matter of
apprehension, it has already
happened. In Gujrat only Muslims
were arrested under POTO while in
case of others who committed the
same kind of heinous crimes not even
an FIR was registered! The
subsequent withdrawal of POTO in
Gujrat and Maharashtra shows how
callously this law was used. The
withdrawal at either place is not
caused by any sudden attack of
conscience! Mr. Narendra Modi was
forced to step back because his
discriminatory actions were becoming
a great source of embarrassement to
BJP in Centre and its allies. In
Maharashtra, those opposing POTO
have been accused of double
standards, and withdrawal of POTO is
nothing but political expediency. We
have seen what had happened to
another POTO like law called TADA
which, thankfully, was ultimately
withdrawn.77,571 people were
arrested under TADA, out of which
about 72,000 were let go because
they did not even have a case
against them. The conviction rate
was less than 2%.
Q: Why do think Gujrat is so prone
to this kind of violence?
Answer: Gujrat is the citadel of the
sangh. Given an opportunity, they
would like nothing better than to
turn the whole country into Gujrat.
They would love that. Imagine a
chief Minister Narender Modi who has
drawn a distinction between secular
violence and terrorism! What kind of
a new term is secular violence?
Q: Do you think it will succeed?
Answer: No, it will not. There is a
world of difference between 1992 and
2002. People outside Gujrat today
are deeply repulsed and disgusted by
what has happened. They are ashamed.
I have spoken to people in six
different cities after Gujrat. There
is a strong sense of disenchantment
among different strata of people. I
am convinced that their game is
over. Now it's a matter of time.
Q: We have reports that Narender
Modi is something of a hero in the
Sangh.
Answer: That should tell you about
the morality and aspirations of the
Sang Parivar!
Q: In a recent discussion on TV, you
mentioned that the RSS ideologues
believe that ultimately the
minorities should not be given even
the basic right to vote. This was
immediately refuted by Uma Bharati,
who was also on the same panel with
you. Do you still stand by your
statement?
Answer: I do. I wish I had my copy
of Mr. Golwalkar's book 'We - or our
Nationhood Defined' at that moment.
Mr. Golwalkar who was the second
supremo of RSS and is referred to as
Guruji even by Mr. L.k. Advani,
published this book in 1939. I came
back and verified it again. In
Chapter 5, page 48 Mr. Golwalkar
says that the minorities may stay in
the country, and I quote," wholly
subordinated to the Hindu nation,
claiming nothing, deserving no
priviledges, far less any
preferential treatment, not even
citizen's rights.' Uma Bharti's
denial was no surprise to me. Truth
has always been a dispensable
commodity for the members of Sangh
Parivar.
Q: What in your view is the ideal
formula to solve Ayodhya? We have
seen many plans put forward in
recent times.
Answer: The government should
understand that the fundamentalists
of both communities are the part of
the problem, and can never be the
part of a solution. The government
has to understand that the
particular plot in Ayodhya does not
belong to either the VHP or the
Babri Masjid Action Committee. It
belongs to the nation. Civil society
must involve itself in this issue.
Educated, secular and liberal people
should come forward to find the
solution.
Q: Would you say that this class has
abdicated from the process?
Answer: No, the government prefers
to talk to fundamentalists. When has
it ever talked to any sensible
person? My opinion is that civil
society should get together and
campaign that a national monument be
built in that place.
Q: Do you think that 9/11 has had an
impact on the way people view
Muslims across the world?
Answer: It has nothing to do with
what has happened here. These are
excuses. The Sangh Parivar's
obsessive hatred for the minorities
was not born on 9/11. It is much
older. We must understand one thing,
ultimately their attack is not on
secularism but on democracy and it's
institutions. This is pure fascism.
Look at how Slobodan Milosevic
started his cleansing campaign. He
dug up the grave of a king called
Salazar who had died 800 years ago,
and put it in a coffin that was
paraded on a chariot through every
city. His message was: the Turks
came and killed him and now you must
take revenge. The concept of time
vanished and people reacted as
though the incident happened only
yesterday. You need an imaginary
myth to propagate hatred, and a poor
auto rickshaw driver on the streets
of Ahmedabad starts looking like the
first son of Babar to the violent
mob. By the way, Milosevic had used
a chariot, in our country they are
called ' raths '.
Q: How long do you think this kind
of ugliness will last?
Answer: This is the beginning of the
end. The Sangh and it's affiliates
have exposed themselves. An average
Indian cannot stomach such ugliness
of thought and deeds. There is
tremendous frustration in the Sangh
today. It is seeing political power
slipping out of it's hands. It's
slogans are not creating euphoria
anymore.
Q: Do you see a distinction between
the BJP, VHP, Bajrang Dal etc?
Answer: I am not so sure. In
Rajisthan where the state
administration moved quickly to
prevent any copycat violence, we see
the spectacle of the state unit
president of the BJP sitting in
dharna protesting against the
Rajisthan police. On the other hand,
in Gujrat, where an unprecedented
genocide has taken place, the BJP
has expressed it's total
satisfaction with the police force,
except for some police officers who
dared to mention BJP, VHP or Bajrang
Dal in their reports. Now, what does
that tell you? What kind of police
force and what kind of law and order
situation suits BJP?
Q: What explains the change in
society, this revulsion?
Answer: People change, priorities
change, aspirations change. The
sangh Parivar is like a mediocre
film producer who had given one hit
and wants to remake it. The lost and
found formula doesn't work
indefinitely.
Q: To what extent has minority
fundamentalism contributed to the
events which have happened?
Answer: The sangh has every reason
to thank minority fundamentalists.
Their vitriolic and aggressive
propaganda has been of the greatest
help to the sangh. What have
organizations like SIMI achieved
besides inviting violence on poor
Muslims?
Q: What should ordinary muslims do?
Answer: They are really in an
unenviable position. All they can
really do is hope to survive in
places like Gujrat. Muslims must
understand that though many have
been butchered in Gujrat, this is
not a Hindu/Muslim problem. They
must understand that it is a clash
of secularism and democracy vs
fascism and intolerance. They have
to improve their lot by lending
strength to secular forces and by
becoming more and more secular
themselves.
Q: What clout do Muslims
fundamentalists have within the
community?
Answer: In recent years they have
lost a lot of their clout. But what
ever clout is left should be fought
by the liberal and secular muslims.
We must understand that like Sangh
parivar represents a miniscule
proportion of Hindus, Muslim
fundamentalists are also the mad
fringe of the socieity. Let us learn
to differentiate between the Sangh
Parivar and Hindus, and Muslim
Fundamentalists and Muslims.
Q: What explains the inaction of the
BJP's NDA allies in the face of
Gujrat?
Answer: The NDA's allies behaviour
leaves a lot to be desired. Did they
react to the Christian bashing we
saw earlier? Did they react when
Murli Manohar Joshi tried to
saffronize and irrationalize
education? They make a hue and cry
even as they assure the government
that it is in no danger of being
toppled. NDA has kept issues like
Personal Law, Article 370 and
Ayodhya out of their agenda, but the
allies cannot hide behind this fig
leaf! The fact is that they have
failed to play the role of a secular
force. The BJP is using them to
further it's own ends and if they go
along with this, then they will lose
any credibility that they have left.
When the BJP eventually drops them,
they will have no place to go.
